DAME JANET: I understand you have a submission,

3 Mr Lissack.

4 MR LISSACK: I do. I make this submission with regret,

5 but on the clearest possible instructions from a number

6 of my lay clients who sit in the chamber today. It

7 concerns the process to be adopted to open and resolve

8 the oral aspect of the non-oral cases.

9 May I draw a line between the understanding of

10 the lawyers and the understanding of our clients, the

11 former always finding it easier to appreciate the wider

12 picture than those most closely and personally

13 involved. For many of our lay clients, who form, of

14 course, the majority in the cases of this Inquiry's

15 painstaking investigation -- as we all know it will

16 be -- the circumstances of the death of their loved

17 one will be dealt with without oral evidence. There is

18 a concern in them which they all share, articulated to

19 me by one this morning in the presence of all the

20 others, that they are simply not doing justice to the

21 memory of their loved one and relative by sitting by

22 and permitting their "day in court", as they have

23 described it to me this morning, to pass as speedily as

24 it is proposed it should.

25 Madam Chairman, you will understand, without me





2

1 having to say it, that some of those who we represent

2 have been deeply involved in the securing of your

3 Inquiry and, to a man and a woman, have been in awe of

4 the capacity for compassion and resolve of difficult

5 issues that you and counsel to the Inquiry, if I may

6 say so, have shown day after day in the early phase of

7 this Inquiry. The universal acclaim with which our

8 clients have greeted this Inquiry's processes has

9 continued day on day which makes all the more

10 disappointing the need for me to raise this issue this

11 morning.

12 I know that the same compassion, the same

13 understanding, will lead you to know before I even say

14 it that those who have waited a long time for this

15 Inquiry, those who have attended innumerable meetings,

16 are dismayed to find that their cases are reduced to a

17 list of names so far as the public are concerned. They

18 know, because they have been assured of this by me and

19 those who work with me and our instructing solicitor,

20 ahead of the Inquiry even being formally set up, when

21 it was known to be coming, that in a public inquiry all

22 cases are investigated equally, those that are dealt

23 with with oral evidence and those which do not have

24 oral evidence. We know that; we have made the point and

25 they know that. But this is not really about that at







3

1 all. This is about recognition, this is about emotion

2 and this is about the public face of marking a passing

3 of a close relative in every single instance with

4 absolutely no decorum at all, as they would see it.

5 The position that they take is this, and I use

6 the words of one of my lay clients, shared by all the

7 others this morning in instructions to me: The very

8 least that they would wish to have would be some form

9 of brief statement as to the immediate circumstances of

10 the death of their relative followed not by an analysis

11 of the evidence -- obviously not -- but by an

12 identification of the evidence (for example, of a son,

13 a daughter, a neighbour, a friend) and that they say is

14 what they would wish to hear as a minimum. They

15 understand, because it has been explained, that of

16 course were this an inquiry into one case, there would

17 probably be no problem but it is an investigation into

18 many hundreds of cases and therefore the Inquiry must

19 have regard to the balance of the position, the need to

20 ensure that all interests are properly served and that

21 time is not unnecessarily taken. But from their

22 perception -- and it is that that I seek to

23 articulate -- a balance may sensibly be struck which

24 permits of some short statement of the circumstances of

25 each case given orally without that in any way







4

1 distorting or disturbing the general progress of the

2 Inquiry, but which will run as we all know for a very

3 long time. So it is in the spirit of regret that I make

4 the application that I do, but I make it nonetheless

5 specifically upon instructions of those who sit before

6 you today.

7 May I, as a footnote, say this please: there is

8 no question of anyone expecting a wand to be waved and

9 for something to suddenly change today. We perfectly

10 understand on their behalf that the process is already

11 in place for today and must rightfully be continued,

12 but we would hope that some system could be found that

13 is not overly burdensome to the Inquiry and in which we

14 will play a part we can to help the legitimate aims and

15 expectations of those who we represent. Thank you for

16 listening to the application.

17 DAME JANET: Thank you, Mr Lissack, you say that you

18 make your application with regret and I receive it with

19 regret, not least because the process by which the

20 Inquiry proposes to deal with these non-oral cases, as

21 we have come to call them, was clearly stated by me as

22 long ago as 2nd July, that is three weeks ago today, I

23 think.

24 I know that those instructing you have been in

25 contact with the Inquiry and, in particular, there have







5

1 been discussions between I think Miss Alexander and

2 Ita Langan on the Inquiry team, but a full explanation

3 was despatched, as I am sure you know, on 19th July

4 giving our definitive reply and I am distressed that

5 this application should be made this morning when a

6 number of people have attended expecting that the

7 non-oral cases will be put into the public domain in

8 the way in which the Inquiry had explained that they

9 would be. I see that you acknowledge that that must go

10 ahead this morning.

11 MR LISSACK: I do.

12 DAME JANET: The press have been alerted to the fact

13 that the case summaries are to be released into the

14 public domain today and they will go on to the Inquiry

15 website and that simply must happen. So there can be no

16 question about that and I shall ask Miss Swift to deal

17 with that in a few minutes.

18 I do not want, of course, to seem unsympathetic

19 about the application that you make. I am pleased that

20 you acknowledge that this in Inquiry has sought to deal

21 not only with your bereaved clients but many other

22 bereaved families from Hyde and possibly also from

23 Todmorden, mainly from Hyde at the present time. We not

24 only want to deal with them compassionately, we do

25 actually feel great compassion for them. Going through







6

1 the material that we are going through day in and day

2 out, and we have now been working consistently on this

3 Inquiry for almost six months, I feel it would be

4 inhuman if we were not to feel great compassion for the

5 families. But, that said, we do feel that we have to

6 strike a balance between the way in which we spend

7 public money and, as you know, time is money, and the

8 desire of some of the families, and I think not by any

9 means all, to have a day, as it were, in court.

10 I know that you are aware, Mr Lissack, that the

11 Inquiry has been careful to consult about which cases

12 should be dealt with orally and which should be dealt

13 with non-orally and I think you have no complaint about

14 that.

15 MR LISSACK: None, no.

16 DAME JANET: Those families who wished to give evidence

17 I think have been able to do so and there will be more

18 obviously in the autumn. At one stage, our

19 understanding was that your clients wished that Miss

20 Swift should read out the case summaries that counsel

21 have prepared in each case. I think that you are aware

22 that a great deal of work has gone into those. They are

23 on average, I think, of the order of four to five

24 sheets of A4 in single spacing. On my calculation, that

25 would take for the 14 non-oral cases with which we are







7

1 concerned today, of the order of three and a half

2 hours. You would say, well, that is not too much to ask

3 and I can understand that point of view. But then when

4 you consider that in the autumn there will be between

5 200 and 300 -- our best estimate is probably about 250

6 -- non-oral cases which will have to be put into the

7 public domain with their case summaries, for Miss Swift

8 to read those I calculate would take something like

9 eight working days and my own view is that that would

10 not be a proper and sensible use of our time and the

11 public money that would be involved. Given that, all

12 those case summaries will go into the public domain;

13 they will go on to the website; hard copies will be

14 available for any relative who wants them, and that

15 goes, today, anybody who wants a hard copy of their

16 case summary will be given one before they leave --

17 there is no difficulty about that -- but to have them

18 all read I do feel would be asking too much and I

19 cannot see any basis for differentiating between the 14

20 cases that we are going to deal with today and the 250

21 cases which we want to deal with in the autumn.

22 So far as time is concerned, I do want to stress

23 that I have set a very difficult timetable for Phase 1

24 because I know that the families want to receive their

25 decisions as early as possible. I cannot over estimate







8

1 the amount of work which has to be done, apart from

2 anything else, by me before that interim report with

3 the individual decisions can be produced. Even now, I

4 have to say that I do not think I can publish it by

5 Christmas, as I had hoped, because we anticipate the

6 hearings will last until the middle of December and I

7 still hope to have it out very early in the New Year.

8 To spend eight working days reading out material which

9 is available for people to read for themselves does not

10 seem to me to be sensible, bearing in mind the

11 timetable that I have set myself for producing the

12 interim report.

13 You suggest today an apparently less

14 time-consuming alternative. I can understand how that

15 must seem very reasonable to you and to your clients.

16 But for Miss Swift to stand up and give a brief

17 exposition of each case, she would have to have some

18 thing in writing in front of her. She cannot turn her

19 mind quickly from one case to another without having

20 something written. She would need more than a computer

21 for a brain if she were to do so. If she were to do

22 that, the team would have to prepare a short document

23 for her to refer to in each and every case. I have

24 thought about this as well because this proposal was

25 raised briefly towards the end of last week and I gave







9

1 it some consideration.

2 In order to ensure that the facts and brief

3 details were accurately stated and nothing can be worse

4 than hearing your case referred to inaccurately -- I am

5 sure you will all agree with that -- in order for that

6 to be done, I think it would take of the order of 30 to

7 45 minutes in each case. 14 cases, no problem. Add on

8 the 250 in the autumn and you are giving the Inquiry

9 team a very substantial additional work load. I

10 understand the desire of people, the families, to mark

11 the passing of their loved ones. I believe that this

12 Inquiry will do that and will do your loved ones

13 justice.

14 I am asking you to understand our position and to

15 rest assured that the cases of all of you are going to

16 be dealt with with equal care by us, by the team and by

17 me in giving my decisions. The fact that your cases are

18 not the subject of oral evidence does not make them any

19 less important. But I do ask you to understand the

20 reasons why I reject Mr Lissack's application as I do,

21 I am afraid, simply because I do feel that the amount

22 of additional work would make a real difference to the

23 speed with which we can produce what, I think, is the

24 most important product for you, namely an interim

25 report and an individual reasoned decision telling you







10

1 what happened to your loved one. I hope that I have

2 explained why I have made this decision. I make it with

3 regret. I understand your point of view. I hope that

4 you will feel able to understand our point of view.

5 Mr Lissack, thank you.

6 MR LISSACK: Thank you very much. I shall say nothing

7 further at the moment. My clients will, to whom those

8 words were helpfully addressed, if I may say so, will

9 reflect upon what has been said. If the need arises for

10 me to have to mention the matter again, I will do so

11 but I will underline again the processes and I hope the

12 need may not arise. But if it does, I know you will

13 hear me.

14 DAME JANET: Thank you very much, Mr Lissack.