21 March 2002
 |
 |
|
1
1 Thursday, 21st March 2002
2 DAME JANET: I would like to begin by identifying
3 all the parties represented today. Some of them I know,
4 familiar faces, and others I do not know at all.
5 I see the Inquiry team here. I am going to go
6 round in anticlockwise direction.
7 MS BLACKWELL: Kate Blackwell, representing the
8 Greater Manchester Police Force together with Mr Michael
9 Shorrock who is absent today.
10 DAME JANET: Yes.
11 MR GILROY: Paul Gilroy.
12 DAME JANET: Yes, Mr Gilroy.
13 MR GILROY: Together with Mr Lissack, Mr Spink and
14 Miss Jerram representing the Tameside family support group.
15 MR ECCLES: Madam Chairman, David Eccles, together
16 with Mr McDermott representing the Health Authority.
17 MR STUART: Madam Chairman, Bruce Stuart
18 representing Detective Inspector David Smith.
19 MS LANG: Beverley Lang, representing General
20 Medical Council.
21 MR NAYLOR: Kevin Naylor Madam Chairman
22 representing Doctor Alan Banks.
23 MR FLANAGAN: Madam Chairman, Steve Flanagan
24 standing in for Mr Ian Hargreaves, representing the Royal
25 College of Nursing.
2
1 DAME JANET: Name again.
2 MR FLANAGAN: Steve Flanagan.
3 MR SCHOLES: Rodney Scholes, instructed by Sylvia
4 Roberts the Borough Solicitor of Tameside Council, today
5 representing the registrars, former registrars, the
6 crematorium superintendent and Registrar and possibly
7 a medical referee from the Dukinfield Crematorium.
8 DAME JANET: Thank you.
9 MR FIELD: Madam Chairman, Mark Field representing
10 Co-op Healthcare.
11 DAME JANET: Thank you.
12 MR WHELTON: Madam Chairman, I am Chris Whelton
13 representing Mr Pollard, the Coroner for Manchester South
14 District.
15 MR EASTWOOD: Madam Chairman, my name is Simon
16 Eastwood I am representing Doctor Moysey of the Donneybrook
17 Surgery.
18 DAME JANET: Anybody else.
19 MR ARNOLD: David Arnold, representing the Board
20 of Deputies of British Jews and also the Manchester Jewish
21 Representative Council.
22 DAME JANET: There was somebody over here.
23 DR EVANS: Doctor Christopher Evans, Royal College
24 of Physicians of London.
25 DAME JANET: Thank you.
3
1 MS POWELL: Madam Chairman, Debra Powell,
2 representing Doctors Booth, Magillivrey, Patel and Durks
3 from the Brook Surgery.
4 DAME JANET: Yes, did you say your name is Powell?
5 MS POWELL: Powell.
6 DAME JANET: Thank you. Is there anybody else.
7 MR HODGKINSON: Barry Hodgkinson.
8 DAME JANET: Wait a moment, I need a new piece of
9 paper!
10 MR HODGKINSON: Barry Hodgkinson, Institute of
11 Population Registration.
12 MS LEWIS: Susan Lewis, representing the Society
13 of Registration Officers.
14 MR MCFARLANE: Alan McFarlane, Madam Chairman,
15 Home Office Drugs Branch.
16 DAME JANET: McFarlane, did you say?
17 MR MCFARLANE: Yes.
18 MR LUTEMER: Steven Lutemer, from the Royal
19 Pharmaceutical Society.
20 DAME JANET: L-U-T-E-M-E-R?
21 MR LUTEMER: That is correct.
22 DAME JANET: Thank you.
23 MR GRIDLEY: Ray Gridley, from Age Concern.
24 DR FOX: Doctor Stephen Fox, representing the
25 Small Practices Association with Ms Auchterlonie, who is ill
4
1 today.
2 DAME JANET: Did you say your name was Fox?
3 DR FOX: Stephen Fox.
4 MS HEMPSEY: Val Hempsey representing the
5 Institute of Healthcare Management.
6 DAME JANET: H-E-M-P-S-E-Y?
7 MR STURMAN: That is correct.
8 MS DAWSON: Michaela Dawson representing the
9 Foundation of the Study of Infant Deaths.
10 DAME JANET: And your name again.
11 MS DAWSON: Michaela Dawson.
12 DAME JANET: Is there anybody else?
13 More than I had expected.
14 Now to say a few words in particular to the family
15 and friends of Shipman's former patients. I see that there
16 are quite a number of people in the public gallery and I
17 anticipate that some of them will be interested in what I am
18 about to say. I know that many of you are waiting anxiously
19 for news of my decisions in the individual cases which are
20 going to be published in the first report.
21 As I said on more than one occasion, the work
22 entailed in the individual decisions has been far greater
23 than was envisaged at the outset. In the end, we will have
24 examined more than 800 deaths and the report will contain
25 about 500 individual decisions. Each of these cases has
5
1 been individually investigated by the team and each of those
2 500 cases will have a decision which has been written by me
3 personally. I hope that that will give you an impression
4 of the amount of work that has been done and is still being
5 done. It is colossal.
6 One of the problems that we have had has been the
7 discovery of further evidence at a late stage. Only last
8 week we discovered the existence of documents relating to
9 individual cases, in fact relating to the involvement of
10 district nurses in some of the individual cases, and we had
11 been assured that all the documents or all the relevant
12 documents had been disclosed. We have now heard that that
13 is not the case. Of course that means that some cases have
14 to be reopened and the new material considered to see
15 whether the decision remains valid.
16 You will recall that we finished as we had thought
17 the oral hearings in December. In fact, we have found two
18 more individual cases in which I feel unable to reach
19 a decision without an oral hearing. A day on which these
20 two cases will be heard will be fixed for 12th April. I
21 think that those are the only two -- I certainly hope so.
22 A large proportion of the first report has now
23 been written but much work remains to be done to ensure the
24 highest possible degree of accuracy. I hope that you will
25 appreciate that it is very important when dealing with
6
1 a sensitive matter, such as the death of somebody belonging
2 to each of you, that it is important that details are
3 accurate, details such as names, dates, matters of that kind
4 and we are making the greater effort to ensure that each
5 individual decision is accurate. But, of course, that
6 entails a great deal of checking work.
7 There is also work to be done on the preparation
8 of the report for publication. We are making very good
9 progress and some parts of the report have already been
10 delivered to the printer. I assure you that the team is
11 making every effort to produce the first report as soon as
12 possible.
13 I hope very much to be able to produce it, publish
14 it, in July. I realise that will be a disappointment to
15 some of you and I must add this word of warning, that I
16 still cannot promise absolutely that it will be ready for
17 July. I personally will be deeply disappointed if we fail
18 to publish in July. We are making every possible effort to
19 do so.
20 If we do achieve that target, I believe it may be
21 unique for an Inquiry to publish a report on this
22 large-scale in so short a time and, whilst we are preparing
23 for and conducting further hearings to which I will now
24 come, because the main purpose of today's meeting is for me
25 to explain the arrangements, proposed arrangements, for
7
1 stages 1 and 2 of the second phase of the Inquiry.
2 The following arrangements are what I presently
3 have in mind. They are not set in stone and if anyone
4 wishes to make a submission that we should do things
5 differently, I will hear your submissions in a little while.
6 The proposed timetable will be as follows. The
7 first disk of documents for Stage 1 will be distributed
8 today. I remind representatives of the undertakings of
9 confidentiality that they have signed. The material on the
10 disks is confidential until it goes into the public domain
11 either by being produced during the hearing or by being
12 posted on the Inquiry website. If, as result of the
13 disclosure of that disk, any interested party has any
14 suggestion to make about additional witnesses who should be
15 interviewed or line of enquiry that should be followed I
16 hope they will communicate their ideas to the Inquiry as
17 soon as possible.
18 Letters warning persons whose conduct might be
19 criticised will be despatched early next week. These
20 letters will be as detailed as it is possible. Such letters
21 will be known during the Inquiry as Salmon letters. That
22 name comes from Lord Justice Salmon who in the report of the Royal
23 Commission on Tribunals of Inquiry in 1966 recommended that
24 all persons who might face criticism during an Inquiry
25 should be given advance warning of such possible criticism.
8
1 I stress that these letters are notice of possible
2 areas of criticism. There has been no pre-judgment on any
3 issue. The purpose of the letters is to enable the
4 recipients to focus clearly on the matters which he or she
5 will wish and I will need to address in their evidence.
6 The hearings will begin on 7th May. On that day
7 we will start at 11.00, mainly because the previous day is
8 a Bank Holiday and travelling is not easy. I hope that late
9 start will allow parties and representative who are coming
10 from some distance to travel that morning. In general, it
11 is my intention that we will sit as we did in Phase 1 from
12 10.00 until 1.00 with a short coffee break in the morning.
13 In the afternoon we will sit from 2.00 until a convenient
14 break occurs, which will usually be some time after 4.00.
15 In the first week, because we have missed the
16 Monday we will sit for the remainder of the week, including
17 Wednesday. However, in general we will not sit on
18 Wednesdays but will sit Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday as
19 in Phase 1. That is my present intention. However, if the
20 timetable becomes tight we may have to sit every day. Also
21 I warn representatives that they must not rely on having
22 Wednesday off in every week. If we have difficulty, for
23 example, in accommodating a witness I might decide to sit on
24 a Wednesday at any time. I give warning now that in the
25 week beginning 13th May we will rise at 3.00 on Tuesday 14th
9
1 and will not sit on either Wednesday or Thursday of that
2 week. The reason is that this chamber will be used for
3 a council meeting. Hearings will resume at 10.00 on the
4 Friday morning, 17th May.
5 I also give advance warning that in the following
6 week we will not sit on Tuesday 21st but will sit on the
7 Wednesday 22nd as a replacement. There will be no sittings
8 in Jubilee week, which is the week beginning 3rd June. It
9 is counsel's hope and intention that the stage 1 sittings
10 will be completed on or before 19th July. I am particularly
11 anxious to avoid sittings during the Commonwealth Games.
12 When we begin on 7th May, there will be an opening
13 by leading counsel to the Inquiry followed by an opportunity
14 for representatives to make brief opening statements on
15 behalf of their clients. I intend that all the openings
16 should be completed within the one day and that we should
17 start with witnesses at 10.00 the following day. The
18 witness list is almost ready. Certainly the early parts of
19 it, I think, are firm. The list is available to
20 representatives today. You should apply to Miss Swift. It
21 will not be long before the witness list is posted on the
22 Inquiry's website.
23 I want to give a particular warning about the
24 content of opening statements. First, this will be the
25 first day on which the proceedings might be broadcast on
10
1 television and radio. I hope that that it will make no
2 difference to the way in which any of us conducts ourselves.
3 We all became accustomed to the operation of the cameras
4 during Phase 1 and there will be no additional equipment in
5 the chamber. There should be no difference to the feel of
6 the hearing from what we became used to during Phase 1.
7 However, I have two particular concerns about
8 openings. We are now moving into that part of the Inquiry
9 where witnesses may face public criticism, some of which may
10 be personally hurtful to them and damaging to their
11 reputations. We all know, the lawyers at any rate, from
12 experience of working with criminal courts that there is
13 a tendency for the opening of a case to be reported in the
14 media in great detail and for the development of the case
15 through the evidence to be relatively neglected. In the
16 context of an Inquiry, the opening of the evidence in
17 summary form may appear highly damaging to a witness and may
18 receive a high degree of exposure in the media, yet when
19 that witness comes to give evidence his or her evidence may
20 provide an explanation which fully meets the criticism.
21 Even if the witness's evidence is then fully reported, as
22 was the opening, the hurt felt and the damage done in the
23 meantime may be irreparable. For some, no doubt, the
24 criticisms will be made good. That must be borne as the
25 public is entitled to discover the truth but the truth is
11
1 discovered by the end of the process and not at the
2 beginning.
3 I know that Miss Swift shares these views and that
4 her opening of the facts will seek to explain the issues to
5 be investigated, will use moderate language and will not
6 suggest conclusions at that stage.
7 I urge the representatives of the interested
8 parties to do likewise. I know that some of your clients
9 will have very strong feelings about these proceedings,
10 which I understand, but the fairness and thoroughness of the
11 proceedings are not helped by the raising of the
12 temperature. I do ask that counsel will please be careful
13 to avoid invective.
14 Secondly, and even more important, I absolutely
15 insist that representatives will avoid prejudging any issues
16 which are for me to decide. Openings are an opportunity for
17 an interested party to outline his or her position. They
18 are not an opportunity to assert conclusions which are for
19 me to decide at some future time. I am not seeking to
20 muzzle counsel but I must say that I will not tolerate any
21 statement which seeks to prejudge my conclusions.
22 As you all know, from 8th May there will be
23 a possibility that the evidence of a witness may appear on
24 television or radio. Stage 1 will be a pilot project.
25 A protocol has been prepared which the participating
12
1 broadcasting companies will be required to follow. Copies
2 of this protocol are now available. You can collect them, I
3 think, from Mr Griffiths at any time today and, in due
4 course, a copy will be posted on the website. Some of you
5 will be aware that since I made my decision in respect of
6 broadcasting late last year a question arose as to whether
7 section 9 of the Contempt of Court Act might render my
8 decision unlawful. I canvassed views on the subject and
9 opinions were divided. I made it plain that any interested
10 party who wished to raise this issue formally was free to do
11 so and that I would hold a further hearing to hear such
12 arguments. I want to make it publicly plain that I have not
13 been asked to hold any such further hearing and I hope that
14 this issue will not now be raised. I have indicated that
15 where any witness wishes to persuade me that his or her
16 evidence should not be broadcast I will consider those
17 submissions. I do not intend to allow such applications to
18 disrupt the smooth running of the Inquiry. In respect of
19 Stage 1, I wish to receive all submissions of that nature in
20 writing with reasons by close of business on 15th April. I
21 will consider them first on paper and hope to give
22 a decision by 22nd April. Anyone still dissatisfied with my
23 decision may renew their application orally. I will hear
24 submissions outside normal hearing hours, either early in
25 the morning or in the late afternoon.
13
1 During Phase 1, counsel to the Inquiry called all
2 the witnesses. Interested parties were allowed to ask
3 questions after that. This seemed to me to work well and I
4 never found it necessary to limit the time taken by counsel
5 for the interested parties. It is my intention that the
6 same arrangement will be followed in Phase 2 with an
7 important exception: in Phase 2, as I have indicated, there
8 will be some witnesses who have received Salmon letters and
9 will know that they face possible criticism in the report
10 and searching and challenging cross-examination during the
11 hearing. Some of them may wish to give an opening statement
12 of their evidence under the guidance of their own counsel or
13 solicitor rather than face the questions of counsel to the
14 Inquiry first.
15 Any witness who is in receipt of a Salmon letter
16 and who wishes to adopt that procedure should tell
17 Miss Swift as soon as possible. Although I have decided in
18 the interests of fairness to adopt that procedure, it must
19 not be taken as an opportunity to go through every word of
20 the witness's written statement. I can assure you that I
21 will have read all the written statements before any witness
22 comes to be sworn. What I intend is that the parties should
23 have an opportunity to deal with a difficult and potentially
24 contentious aspect of their evidence in the witness's own
25 way. Where this procedure applies, once the initial
14
1 statement has been made, counsel to the Inquiry will then
2 ask questions. Other representatives may follow if they
3 wish. There will be, as before, we know, the right to
4 re-examine although, as you will recall, in Phase 1 I was
5 usually willing to allow extra questions where something new
6 had arisen or something has been overlooked.
7 I want to you say word now about the Hyde Public
8 Library. As you will recall, at the end of Phase 1 I
9 announced that I was considering whether to discontinue the
10 viewing facility at Hyde Public Library. It seemed to me
11 that the room had been little used and I offered to consult
12 with interested parties. I asked for views to be submitted
13 by the end of February. In the event, 299 questionnaires
14 were sent out and 123 were returned. Only 27 individuals
15 reported that they had used the facility at least once and
16 only 7 had used it more than ten times. 25 respondents said
17 that they would use the room in future if the facility were
18 continued. 59 respondents, that is 48 per cent, thought
19 that the facility should be continued although of those only
20 25 said that they would use it themselves in Phase 2. 50
21 respondents thought that the facility should be
22 discontinued, the remaining 14 felt unable to offer any
23 comment.
24 The most frequently expressed reason for
25 opposition to closure was that Phase 2, it was thought,
15
1 would generate more general interest than Phase 1 because of
2 the personal nature of the material in Phase 1. The most
3 frequently expressed reason for closing the facility is that
4 it was thought that it was a waste of public money.
5 My own view is that unless the number of people
6 using the facility were to increase substantially, the
7 continued provision could not be justified. However,
8 a further consideration must now be taken into account. The
9 Inquiry has been told that it is the intention of
10 Tameside Borough Council to carry out major work at the site
11 of the public viewing room. Although the Inquiry would not
12 be asked to leave the room until June, it may not be
13 possible to continue the present facility until the end of
14 the Stage 1 hearings.
15 If a viewing facility were to be provided beyond
16 that period, the Inquiry would have to find a new location
17 and pay the setup costs. It seemed to me that those
18 respondents who said that the facility might be used more in
19 Phase 2 than it had been in Phase 1 made a valid point. The
20 subject matter might be of more general interest than it was
21 in Phase 1.
22 I have decided, therefore, to allow the facility
23 to continue during the first stage of Phase 2 while we can
24 still use the viewing room in the public library. The usage
25 will be carefully monitored. I will then be able, I hope,
16
1 to make a decision as to whether or not we ought to continue
2 to offer this provision. If I decide that we should, the
3 Secretary to the Inquiry will be asked to find an
4 alternative venue.
5 I turn now to Stage 2, death and cremation
6 certification. Much of what I have already said in respect
7 of Stage 1 will also apply to Stage 2, save to the extent
8 that practical experience might cause me to modify the
9 procedures as we go along.
10 The proposed timetable is that we hope to start
11 the hearings in late September or early October. For
12 holiday and preparation purposes, I can give an assurance
13 that the hearings will not begin before Monday 23rd
14 September. The first disk of general documents will be
15 distributed in late May or early June. The second disk,
16 which will contain witness statements and additional
17 documents, will be ready for release in late July at about
18 the time when we finish the hearings of Stage 1. Salmon
19 letters will be despatched during July. The sittings
20 programme will be similar to that in Stage 1; that is in
21 general we will sit Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, we
22 will not usually sit on Wednesdays unless the timetable
23 demands. There may be occasions when we have to sit on
24 Wednesdays for special reasons either instead of or in
25 addition to another day. So, again, please do not rely on
17
1 being free on Wednesdays.
2 We hope to finish the witnesses before Christmas
3 and to conduct the Stage 2 seminars in January. The dates
4 that we have pencilled in for those seminars will be the
5 weeks commencing 13th and 20th January 2003.
6 Will you please take it that I repeat in respect
7 of Stage 2 what I said about opening statements in respect
8 of Stage 1?
9 The witness order has not yet been determined, but
10 I can assure you that Miss Swift will communicate with the
11 interested parties as soon as the order of witnesses has
12 been decided. The order of questioning will be as I have
13 just indicated in respect of Stage 1; that is counsel to the
14 Inquiry will usually question the witness first, followed by
15 the witness's representative, if any, followed by other
16 interested parties.
17 The same facility will be available to witnesses
18 who have received a Salmon letter as I have just indicated
19 in respect of Stage 1. It is a matter for them to choose
20 whether they wish to give their initial statement under the
21 guidance of their own counsel or not, but please will
22 representatives inform Miss Swift of what their decision is.
23 As I indicated and reminded you earlier, the
24 question of broadcasting and whether it continues is
25 a matter which I shall reconsider at the end of Stage 1. I
18
1 have not yet decided whether there will be broadcasting
2 during Stage 2.
3 I want to say a word or two about the seminars.
4 As you know, our intention is that proposals for change
5 should be considered through the conduct of a number of
6 seminars. Our plans for these events are still at an early
7 stage and our minds are open to suggestions. However, I
8 think it likely that there will be about four events in
9 those two weeks that I have mentioned, each dealing with
10 a different but related topic. The seminars will be
11 conducted in public in this room. We propose to invite a
12 number of experts with knowledge of the matter under
13 discussion and they will be asked to discuss proposals which
14 will already have been circulated. We have in mind to
15 invite about six to eight experts to each event. The
16 seminars will probably be moderated by Miss Swift. If
17 interested parties have any particular suggestions as to
18 suitable experts, Miss Swift will be pleased to hear from
19 them.
20 That is all I wanted to say at the moment. I
21 imagine there will be a number of applications on a variety
22 of topics, so what I am going to do is to call upon
23 representatives in the order in which I took their names.
24 It became a little more haphazard than I had anticipated,
25 but there it is.
19
1 That means that I will start with Miss Blackwell.
2 MS BLACKWELL: Thank you, Madam Chairman, but in
3 fact I have no representations to make on behalf of the GMP.
4 DAME JANET: Mr Gilroy?
5 MR GILROY: Madam Chairman, there is only one
6 matter in relation to which we have an immediate reaction to
7 the observations you have made and I wonder if some
8 assistance could be given on that subject. It is the
9 question of Salmon letters. Obviously, those whom we
10 represent, and particularly those present today, will be
11 very interested to know the extent to which information will
12 be published (a) as to who is to receive a Salmon letter and
13 (b) the extent to which those parties are informed as to
14 potential lines of criticism.
15 I know it is the practice of previous Inquiries to
16 adopt differing practices in relation to the dissemination
17 of that information, but I am sure that as soon as we leave
18 this room, we will be asked the question: what is the extent
19 to which that information will be placed in the public
20 domain, so that when the questions are asked of those
21 individuals who receive the letters: what are the possible
22 lines of questioning that certainly counsel to the Inquiry
23 will be pursuing?
24 DAME JANET: It is certainly not my intention that
25 Salmon letters should be put into the public domain
20
1 immediately. I will have to give consideration to the
2 question to what extent those letters go into the public
3 domain at or before the time of the hearing. I shall give
4 consideration to that and I have not yet made a decision
5 about it. I certainly would not think it appropriate that
6 those matters or those letters should go into the public
7 domain at an early stage. On the other hand, I can see that
8 there is a strong argument for allowing the nature of the
9 potential criticism to be known to other parties at or about
10 the time of the commencement of the hearing.
11 MR GILROY: I am very grateful.
12 DAME JANET: I will give the matter some thought.
13 Mr Gilroy, while you are on your feet, I want to
14 take the opportunity to say something about funding. In
15 respect of Phase 1, the Tameside Group had a team of four
16 counsel. Some of them we saw more frequently than others.
17 This goes for everybody. I want to make it plain that one
18 of the reasons why we have or one of the consequences
19 I think of having the Inquiry divided into stages and phases
20 is that it is designed to reduce the need for
21 representatives to attend on many, many days when they are
22 not greatly involved, which results in inefficiency in their
23 time and in respect of their time and also a great deal of
24 public expenditure which may not be justified. Issues of
25 funding are going to be looked at in respect of each stage
21
1 of Phase 2, and what I wanted to say initially to you
2 Mr Gilroy -- but this applies to everybody with equal
3 force -- is that I will consider the extent to which funding
4 is justified according to the need for daily involvement and
5 the extent of the involvement which is appropriate.
6 As you know, your group had four counsel. I would
7 like to hear from your instructing solicitor with her
8 proposals for Stages 1 and 2 so that we can consider the
9 appropriate level of representation during the next two
10 stages of the Inquiry.
11 MR GILROY: That can easily be accommodated and
12 indeed provisional arrangements --
13 DAME JANET: I am sure you had it in mind.
14 MR GILROY: Yes.
15 DAME JANET: However, I would like to have the
16 matter clarified in correspondence. We do not need to deal
17 with it today, and I take the opportunity of mentioning it
18 to you because you are the first one to whom it has applied,
19 but it does apply to everybody. Is there anything else?
20 MR GILROY: Madam Chairman, we have no further
21 observations to make.
22 DAME JANET: Thank you very much. Mr Eccles?
23 MR ECCLES: Madam Chairman, the Health Authority
24 have no representations.
25 DAME JANET: Mr Stuart for Mr Smith?
22
1 MR STUART: Madam Chairman, my only application
2 was on the funding issue for Detective Inspector Smith. I
3 hope you received my written submissions dated 15th March.
4 DAME JANET: Well, I did and I did not. There is
5 actually a page missing.
6 MR STUART: That is probably my fault. I hope it
7 was not an important one.
8 DAME JANET: Well, I think I can imagine what it
9 said.
10 MR STUART: I can probably help you; I think I
11 have a copy.
12 DAME JANET: What happened, Mr Stuart, is that we
13 received the covering letter and there was attached to it
14 a document which I think probably was drafted by you. It
15 went as far as 19 pages and unfortunately the penultimate
16 page of that was missing.
17 MR STUART: I think that was the important page.
18 DAME JANET: I think it would be quite important,
19 but I think I can imagine what you are saying.
20 MR STUART: As long as you agree with me ...
21 DAME JANET: Mr Stuart, there is no doubt that
22 Detective Inspector Smith must be represented. What I would
23 like to know from you -- he must be represented and I can
24 understand the reason why he must be represented separately
25 from the police for Stage 1. I will come back to what I was
23
1 saying to Mr Gilroy, that I am going to look at issues of
2 funding on a stage by stage basis and I can see that
3 Detective Inspector Smith is in a different position in
4 Stage 1 from the rest of Phase 2.
5 I am not sure that you agree with that and you may
6 want to make a submission about Stage 2 as well as Stage 1.
7 MR STUART: I do not think so at this stage. I
8 accept what you say about Stage 2.
9 DAME JANET: Except that I am intending really to
10 make arrangements for Stage 2 as well as Stage 1 today.
11 This is a meeting that is for those two stages jointly. So
12 if you want to make any submissions about Stage 2, feel free
13 to do so.
14 MR STUART: Certainly that was my intention and in
15 my submission, Stage 2 naturally follows on from Stage 1 as
16 far as Detective Inspector Smith is concerned, because when
17 one goes to enquire into the practices, for instance, at the
18 crematorium, the records, that is relevant in my submission
19 to what was available to Detective Inspector Smith when he
20 enquired into these matters in March 1998. It may have been
21 the procedures then were a hindrance to his enquiry and in
22 my submission, those matters require his representation for
23 part 2.
24 DAME JANET: As it seems to me, he is not in any
25 conflict with the potential conflict with the police in
24
1 respect of Stage 2.
2 MR STUART: We hope not, no.
3 DAME JANET: I find it hard to imagine how he
4 could be. I recognise and have always recognised -- I think
5 I indicated this last year --
6 MR STUART: I was taught long ago not to give
7 "yes" or "no" answers to anything. We do not see any
8 conflict at this stage, no.
9 DAME JANET: So far as Stage 1 is concerned, I
10 recognise that he must be separately represented from the
11 police; I understand that. What is the position so far as
12 police federation is concerned?
13 MR STUART: Up to this stage, the
14 Police Federation have been funding his representation. As
15 you know, there was representation for my instructing
16 solicitors in Part 1 of the Inquiry and to a certain extent,
17 they have funded my early preparation which was another
18 submission I had made in my written submissions, that there
19 should be some funding for the preparation, the essential
20 background reading necessary to conduct Stage 2. But that
21 is what has happened so far, but, in our submission, this is
22 a matter now that should be taken over from the
23 Police Federation; they should not have the burden now of
24 the cost of representation of Detective Inspector Smith.
25 DAME JANET: Mr Stuart, I think you understand and
25
1 I make it plain so that everybody else does, that my
2 authority in respect of funding is to make a recommendation
3 to the Secretary of State rather than to make a decision.
4 What I shall do is to explain to the Secretary of State the
5 position as I see it, which is that Detective Inspector
6 Smith must be separately represented during Stage 1, and I
7 will explain that he has received funding from the
8 Police Federation, but that there is a good argument why he
9 should be given public funding for Stage 1. I would not be
10 prepared to recommend it at the moment unless you persuade
11 me further in respect of Stage 2.
12 MR STUART: Certainly as long as you allow me to
13 come back later on in Stage 1, maybe, when we see how the
14 position has developed.
15 DAME JANET: Nothing is set in stone in these
16 matters.
17 MR STUART: And also for the preparation of
18 representation in Stage 2, it obviously required quite a lot
19 of preparation as you well know. There is a lot of reading
20 that has to go into being in a position to --
21 DAME JANET: If you are going to be given funding
22 for Stage 1 of Phase 2, we will obviously include some
23 preparation time: It must.
24 MR STUART: Thank you.
25 DAME JANET: I am not in a position to say how
26
1 much you are going to get. That must be a matter for
2 negotiation with Mr Palin.
3 MR STUART: Thank you.
4 DAME JANET: Who is next? Ms Lang?
5 MS LANG: I have no application.
6 DAME JANET: Mr Naylor?
7 MR NAYLOR: Madam Chairman, I have a similar
8 application relating to funding, specifically the
9 representation of Doctor Alan Banks in relation to Stage 1
10 only of Phase 2, and I would ask that funding be met from
11 public funds in relation to that stage alone. I do not seek
12 funding in relation to Stage 2.
13 DAME JANET: I must ask you the same question in
14 respect of Doctor Banks as I asked in respect of Detective
15 Inspector Smith. The present situation is that he has
16 funding from the MGU?
17 MR ECCLES: He has received limited funding, and I
18 highlight that word, from the Medical Protection Society,
19 but so far as further funding from that source, I cannot say
20 for certain, but the feeling amongst the Protection Society
21 is that in relation to Stage 1 of Phase 2 that the costs
22 should properly be met from public funds.
23 DAME JANET: I say the same to you as I have just
24 said to Mr Stuart that I would make that recommendation to
25 the Secretary of State with the caveat that there has been
27
1 funding from in effect an insurer in the past. Is there
2 anything else you want to say?
3 MR NAYLOR: There is nothing further, Madam
4 Chairman.
5 DAME JANET: Thank you very much. Mr Flanagan?
6 MR FLANAGAN: Thank you Madam Chairman, I have no
7 further representation to make.
8 DAME JANET: Mr Scholes?
9 MR SCHOLES: I have an application that you
10 recommend to the Secretary of State that Tameside Council's
11 representation of the registrars, the crematorium
12 Superintendent Registrar and possibly the medical referee
13 should be publicly funded. At present, the Borough
14 Solicitor Sylvia Roberts is doing all that she can to assist
15 the Inquiry and the individuals who require representation
16 at this Inquiry. This causes a difficulty if the funding is
17 to be at the cost of the Council taxpayers of Tameside. The
18 Borough Solicitor is concerned in particular that she may
19 have problems with the District Auditor.
20 DAME JANET: With the District Auditor?
21 MR SCHOLES: Yes.
22 DAME JANET: Well, yes. That concerns me,
23 Mr Scholes, and I will tell you why, that there was some
24 correspondence between Miss Roberts and Mr Palin at which
25 she explained -- and I had not appreciated this -- that the
28
1 registrars are not employees of the Council and that causes
2 me concern, not only from her point of view but also from my
3 own, in that if I were to recommend to the Secretary of
4 State that he should agree to public funding, I am not sure
5 that she is the right person to be representing the
6 registrars.
7 I understand that the ONS are in a position to
8 arrange legal representation and that the registrars in
9 particular might be more appropriately accommodated in that
10 way, which would avoid the difficulty with the auditor.
11 MR SCHOLES: The ONS has taken no interest
12 whatsoever in relation to the individual registrars.
13 DAME JANET: Have they been asked to do so?
14 MR SCHOLES: As far as I am aware, no. They have
15 not been notified at all.
16 DAME JANET: You see, it may be that they have not
17 been notified because it was only recently that it was
18 appreciated that a potential problem arose because the
19 registrars are not employees.
20 MR SCHOLES: The difficulty is that they are in
21 a very strange situation.
22 DAME JANET: I realise that, having read
23 Mrs Roberts letter.
24 MR SCHOLES: Looking at the practicalities of it,
25 whoever represents the registrars is clearly going to have
29
1 to spend some time in the offices.
2 DAME JANET: Some time?
3 MR SCHOLES: In the offices of the Registrar.
4 DAME JANET: Of the registry?
5 MR SCHOLES: Yes. They are Tameside Borough
6 Council offices. Tameside Borough Council actually pay the
7 registrars.
8 DAME JANET: But then --
9 MR SCHOLES: They are not employers so they cannot
10 dismiss them or discipline them but they pay them. In those
11 circumstances, from a practical point of view, it would seem
12 more sensible if Sylvia Roberts continues on an indemnity
13 basis so she has no problems with the District Auditor.
14 DAME JANET: What is the position with the
15 crematorium staff?
16 MR SCHOLES: Crematorium staff are directly
17 employed by Tameside.
18 DAME JANET: And the medical referee is not, I
19 imagine.
20 MR SCHOLES: The medical referee is not, but he is
21 again paid. It would seem unfortunate if all these
22 different parties had different representation, fragmented
23 representation, if Sylvia Roberts could continue to do it.
24 DAME JANET: Yes, I do not at the moment see any
25 difficulty would arise if the crematorium staff were
30
1 represented by somebody different from the Registry
2 Registrars; their functions are unrelated, really.
3 MR SCHOLES: It is envisaged that I should
4 represent all of them, which will cut down the costing.
5 DAME JANET: I can see that there is efficiency in
6 reducing the number of representatives here. Mr scholes, can
7 I give you this assurance, that I recognise that the
8 Registrars at any rate must be represented and that in some
9 way or another, that will have to come out of public funds
10 and I recognise the force of the point that you make about
11 the burghers of Tameside. I think that we will have to look
12 more carefully at the appropriateness of the Tameside
13 Borough Council solicitor representing the registrars in the
14 circumstances. I am not brushing away your application, and
15 I am not treating it unfavourably. I am suggesting we must
16 look into it more carefully. But I recognise the force of
17 what you say that it would be desirable that the group
18 should be represented by one if that turns out to be
19 feasible.
20 MR SCHOLES: The difficulty I face of course is
21 that unless a decision is made fairly quickly, I will not
22 know whether I am instructed.
23 DAME JANET: It will be made fairly quickly.
24 MR SCHOLES: Thank you very much.
25 DAME JANET: Mr Field?
31
1 MR FIELD: Madam Chairman, we have no further
2 submissions to make, thank you.
3 DAME JANET: Mr Whelton?
4 MR WHELTON: No representation, Madam Chairman.
5 DAME JANET: Mr Eastwood?
6 MR EASTWOOD: Madam Chairman, my application this
7 morning is simply to seek representation for Doctor Moysey,
8 but as the Inquiry will know, my instruction is from the
9 Medical Protection Society and I make an application for
10 funding.
11 DAME JANET: Thank you very much. Yes, Doctor
12 Moysey may be represented.
13 MR EASTWOOD: Thank you, Madam Chairman.
14 DAME JANET: Mr Arnold.
15 MR ARNOLD: Nothing, Madam.
16 DAME JANET: Doctor Evans?
17 DOCTOR EVANS: No representation.
18 DAME JANET: Miss Powell?
19 MISS POWELL: Madam Chairman, yes. My
20 applications are that the four doctors from the Brook
21 Surgery be recognised as interested parties so that they may
22 be represented. Also I would ask that you recommend to the
23 Secretary of State that their representation for Stages 1
24 and 2 should be publicly funded. They are currently
25 supported, one of them by the NPS and the other three by the
32
1 MDU, although it is right to say that the Inquiry has
2 already agreed to fund part of the representation already in
3 relation to the preparation of statements.
4 DAME JANET: The preparation of statements is
5 a different matter and in general the Inquiry is prepared to
6 pay for that to be done by the representative, if everybody
7 is happy with that. That is work the Inquiry would have to
8 do itself in any event; so that, as it were, falls outside
9 funding for representation at the hearing. Miss Powell,
10 certainly the doctors have rights of representation; that is
11 not a difficulty.
12 So far as Stage 1 is concerned, I cannot at the
13 moment see any reason for recommending public funding. If
14 you want to say anything more about that please do.
15 MISS POWELL: Madam, in relation to Stage 1, we at
16 the moment are not sure what level of representation may be
17 required. That may become clearer after next week in view
18 of the announcements being made this morning, madam, and it
19 may be it is appropriate after next week to make further
20 representations about that.
21 DAME JANET: I think that is a good idea. It may
22 also be sensible to defer your application in respect of
23 Stage 2 until the position is clearer.
24 MISS POWELL: We are very happy to do that so long
25 as we are able --
33
1 DAME JANET: I understand that. I will treat your
2 second application as being adjourned in both respects.
3 MISS POWELL: I am very grateful.
4 DAME JANET: Mr Hodgkinson?
5 MR HODGKINSON: Madam Chairman, no representations
6 are made at this stage.
7 DAME JANET: Thank you. Miss Lewis?
8 MISS LEWIS: Again, no representations to be made
9 at this stage, thank you.
10 DAME JANET: Mr McFarlane?
11 MR MCFARLANE: None at this stage.
12 DAME JANET: Mr Lutener?
13 MR LUTEMER: None, madam.
14 DAME JANET: Mr Gridley?
15 MR GRIDLEY: None, madam.
16 DAME JANET: Mr Fox?
17 DR FOX: Madam Chairman, I think my association
18 will best be represented in the Inquiry in the seminars in
19 January and I would like to apply for funding for those.
20 Stage 1 would not be of great help.
21 DAME JANET: I can see that you do not have
22 a particular interest in Stage 1. I am not at all sure how
23 you will justify public funding for Stage 2.
24 DR FOX: I mean just for the seminars, madam,
25 because we have a lot of interest. Any decision made by
34
1 your Inquiry will have a great deal of influence on the
2 practice made by my members in the provision of their care
3 to their patients.
4 DAME JANET: Yes. I can see why you are an
5 interested party in respect of any changes that might be
6 made in death certification procedures, but I had not
7 anticipated that any interested party would seek to take
8 part in the seminars where they had not been represented and
9 following the evidential part of the proceedings. Is it
10 your society's intention to follow the proceedings and to be
11 represented by a solicitor or counsel at the hearings?
12 DR FOX: No. We have no representation
13 facilities. We have left that to the British Medical
14 Organisation and the Royal College of General Practitioners.
15 DAME JANET: So really what you are hoping to do
16 is to follow the proceedings from a distance, as it were,
17 and then to make submissions in respect of change?
18 DR FOX: That is correct, madam.
19 DAME JANET: Yes, I understand. Certainly you
20 will be free to do that but I do not think that I will be
21 minded to grant funding. It seems to me that it may be
22 appropriate for your organisation to make a written
23 submission in their own time and perhaps to seek the
24 opportunity to develop it orally in conjunction possibly
25 with the seminars. As I have indicated, our thinking about
35
1 how the seminars should be conducted is at a relatively
2 early stage and I had not anticipated receiving oral
3 submissions from interested parties. I had certainly
4 anticipated receiving written submissions but it would seem
5 to me that those ought to be prepared at your society's own
6 expense and not at public expense.
7 DR FOX: My organisation is a very small
8 organisation, although we do represent well over
9 five per cent of the General Practice population of the
10 country and our activities are monitored and have a great
11 influence on over a fifth of the general practitioners in
12 the country because we do have a great deal of influence.
13 The impact of any changes would have more impact on the
14 activities of the single-handed and two-handed practices
15 rather than larger practices.
16 DAME JANET: I can well understand why you would
17 want to make a submission. At the moment, I cannot see any
18 justification for those submissions to be paid for from
19 public funds. If you want to consider matters, there are
20 many months which will pass before anything needs to be done
21 and I will hear from you again in writing, but my present
22 view -- and I warn you of this in advance -- is that your
23 association should stand the cost of making those
24 submissions from its own funds.
25 DR FOX: Thank you, madam.
36
1 DAME JANET: Miss Hempsey?
2 MISS HEMPSEY: No submissions.
3 DAME JANET: Miss Dawson?
4 MISS DAWSON: No representations.
5 DAME JANET: Good. Thank you very much. Does
6 anybody else have anything to say? Miss Swift?
7 MISS SWIFT: No, Madam Chairman.
8 DAME JANET: Good. In that case, I will close
9 this meeting and thank you for attending and look forward to
10 the opening of Phase 2 at 11.00 on 7th May.
11 (The Inquiry adjourned)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
| ||
 Back to Index |
||
Back to top
Published by The Shipman Inquiry
© Crown Copyright 2001